Curse

Div · Oct 29, 2007, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Top teams in the past have played FOC spike(EW), fc air spike with a life barrier monk(IB) in tournaments. Other top teams have played spiritual pain mesmer spike(Pnh) or Paraway(Cry). Thumpway (IQ).

I dont think that you would say that those particular builds are "Interesting".

Its a completely different rationale that you use when you decide to play melandru dervishes and other shitty ass builds.

Its got shit all to do with the melandrus dervish being Interesting or that immunity to conditions is retarded, both of which are true.

Joe

I think the point is that it's pretty stupid to abuse game mechanics and run melandrus dervish+sinsplit+ineptitude every single match of the tournament. Top teams in the past that have done things like that do it as an alternative build, not one that a guild simply runs over and over again.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 29, 2007, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I talked about this months ago and you said it was a retarded idea.

You suggested 9001 things, god forbid you have a good suggestion every once in a while..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Blood Magic: This attribute is essentially bland, alot of the mechanics revolve around degen and regen for
energy and health. Although this is as far as it goes interestingly enough. Some skills I believe should be buffed
aka Mark of Subversion. along with some of the favored and remembered bloodspiking skills.

Blood magic needs less spiky skills and more skills that have an additional effect, I think skills like blood bond has potential to be an actually useful skill but the duration is a little too short, Blood magic should be pushed more into support direction than straight up damage.

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Death Magic: The attribute that mainly deals with corpses as another resource. Obviously according to other games
everyone knows how this attribute should work. In my opinion this is one of the more balanced lines of skills.

Death magic has some nice skills, but really only tainted/rotting/putrid is playable (apart from rising bile in hex builds), 90% of the skills in this attribute are bad or simply not viable in PvP (GvG)

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Life Transfer: 10 Energy +4 Seconds 20s Cooldown
This skill has the ability to become powerful for degeneration builds. For some reason though it has been trash since I can remember.
The weakest points were its cooldown and length in comparison to non-elite skills. So I decided to buff those factors.

Apart from arenas I don't think this skill will ever see play because theres plenty of ways to put degen on someone and it's not worth losing your elite slot over, the only way this could be remotely interesting is if it was basically a life siphon with more degen (same recharge cast time and duration).

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Soul Leech: Lasts 20 Seconds 10 more lifestealing
A very very bad Backfire, this one just is obvious.

This should probably be more like an elite version of mark of subversion, cut the recharge to 8-10s and make the next spell (that targets an ally) fail and steal life.

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Feast of Corruption: 10 Energy 15s Cooldown
We don't want this skill broken nor underpowered I believe this is a good medium.

This skill does nothing but promote gimmicky spikes, I'm glad it's not really playable atm.

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Pain of Disenchantment: 5 Energy 1s Cast time
Had to be buffed.

The only way to make this somewhat usable is to give it a short recharge and a long duration, the effect isnt that strong that this should be a problem, but it might end up doing some pressure like that.

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Signet of Suffering: 15s Cooldown
Had to be buffed as well.

See Feast of Corruption.

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Weaken Knees: The foe now also takes 0...48...57dmg
The KD factor alone was not worth it for me, people use gale/cripshot/cripslash this although could have some usage now.

I don't think damage is the best idea, maybe make it last for 5..15 seconds and not end on KD instead.

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Virulence: 8s Cooldown
Had to be buffed.

I'd rather see the duration of the conditions increased so it canbe a viable alternative of applying disease to tainted/rotting, maybe also reduce the recharge slightly.

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Discord: 1s Casttime, 5s Cooldown Reworked, Target foe takes 0..30..35 dmg, if that foe is has a hex/condition/enchantment
that foe takes 0..30..35 for each. (Max 135 Dmg)
This was suggested by someone else I read earlier I think this is a good adjustment for the skill.

See Feast of Corruption.

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Wail of Doom: Cooldown 10s
This is probably the most interesting necro skill of them all, it deserves a shot to be worthwhile and flexible.

I'd rather see this changed to 10e remove the life sac and keep the recharge the same, definately an interesting skill but you really don't wanna make this one too powerful.

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Mark of Subversion: 15s Recharge
30 second recharge is ridiculous.

15 is a bit too good maybe, 20s would be better I think.

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Reckless Haste: Lowered energy cost to 10, -1s in duration
This I believe needed to happen to be more in line with blurred vision.

Agreed, though maybe reduce the miss % slightly.

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Weaken Armor: Gives for 0...17..24s Cracked Armor instead, Cast Time 2s, Cooldown 15s
I think we all want this by now.

This still won't see play, shellshock is much better.

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Blood Bond:10e Lasts 10 Seconds, +3..+9 Health Regen, -2 Degen

I'd rather make this some sort of blood magic tainted flesh, except with a little shorter duration, should be easily dealt with still (diversion, mirror etc) and the effect isnt totally out of line (maybe slightly decrease the regen though)

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Blood of the Aggressor: 1/2s

Necro's way of linebacking? Maybe replace the second lifesteal part with a KD instead.

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Vampiric Swarm: 2s cast
I want to see something along these lines played 3 seconds makes the skill bad.

See Feast of Corruption

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Deathly Swarm: 2s cast

Same as above.

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Fetid Ground: Reworked: If target foe is suffering from a hex or condition that foe takes 15-65 cold damage and is knocked down.
There is no KD along the necro line at all, so the purpose beforehand was near impossible to create.

Bad idea, there are KDs in the necro line (weaken knees, soul bind) KDs are really strong and shouldn't have conditions that are met so easily without at least having a drawback like gale.

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Signet of Humility: -3 Seconds, 2s Cast
The problem with humility is the "camping" factor it has on characters rending them useless for the whole game with no skill included.
With this new version of humility 24/7 lockdowns won't happen, it can be used on secondaries, and more difficult to interrupt.
Almost a Bull's Strike for mesmers, needing to know when to use the skill instead of tabbing and making sure the same thing over
and over is disabled.

The comparison to bull's strike makes no sense at all, humility is only a problem now because of dependance on elites, pre-lod and bsurge this wasn't a problem at all, I'd rather have that dependance changed than humility itself.

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Death Pact Signet: 12s Recharge
8 seconds has proved from my perspective to be too abusive, in the HA environment time means everything and this skill having
a lower recharge then most other hard rez's makes games prolonged. It's a slap on the wrist but this skill deserves it.

I don't know, the drawback of this skill is quite significant, it's a good skill but it can backfire when used a lot, I wouldn't touch this tbh.

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Ether Signet: 30s Recharge
Skill should have more potential

Why? It's a dumb skill, the condition is so easy to meet you could basically change this to "you gain 10-20 energy" I'd rather them buff interesting inspiration skills like IHex and DrEnch.

moko · Oct 29, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

please don't comment on classes that you are absolutely trash at.

(this is directed at a certain assassin lover.)

also i don't want this thread to turn into a discussion about the buttonsmash behaviour of classes.

thanks.

Sinful Doom · Oct 29, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Also some suggestions: 20 tournament tokens= 1 Reward point

great suggestion.

rii · Oct 29, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Hex Eater Vortex 5 energy, 1s cast, 12s recharge

Remove a hex from target ally, and deal X-Y damage to nearby foes. If target foe is still under the effects of a hex, you lose 5 energy and all nearby foes lose 1 enchantment.

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Black Lotus Strike 10 energy /attack/ 12s recharge

If target foe is suffering from a hex, this attack deals +X-Y damage, you gain 1 energy, and then take 1,000-30,000 damage and cannot respawn for the rest of the game.

1234567891011

Knowledge · Oct 29, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Melandru Devish:
Melandru isn't the problem. Wearying Strike is probably the only thing that could take another hit. Granted, some of the other Devish Elites pale in comparison to the Avatars (Melandru + Grenth), buffing them isn't the answer either.

Giving a Dervish an Eviscerate without any drawbacks is really dangerous. With the really high base damage of a Scythe and its AoE factor, creating an Eviscerate out of Wounding Strike or Reapers Sweep would be more imbalanced than a Melandru + Grenth Avatar combined into one. Maybe a little exaggeration there, but you get the idea. Why do you think Reapers Sweep and Wounding Strike are the way they are? Because, clearly Izzy realized this in skill creation. He forced Dervishes to lock in two skill slots to have a Warrior's Eviscerate, created the Weakness penalty of Wearying Strike, and then created a downtime on Melandru.

If Wounding Strike or Reapers Sweep are turned into another Eviscerate, the new Dervish Bars would look similar to the D/Rt Grenth Bars, with Extend Enchantments and Sight Beyond Sight. You do not want this to happen.

Heart of Fury:
I really dont understand why people are still using this skill to be honest. Pious Fury is way better. You can put harder hitting Scythe Attacks on a Dervish with this skill, in particular Lyssa's Assault, you will have great energy management, your Eremites Attack, and basically have a Frenzy on your bar. Pious Fury synergizes so well on a D/W with Bull's Strike and Rush as well if you want to go that route.

Heart of Fury isn't imbalanced because most players, whom I'd like to call idiots but I wont, run Pious Haste with it, and it's not nearly up enough. Heart of Fury is also an Enchantment with a very long recharge, which means that it is subject to removal from the enemy team, as well as itself.

Harriers Grasp:
I don't think that I've seen a single Dervish bar with this skill since right after the release of Nightfall. The skill in itself is a pretty good skill, but really isn't imbalanced either.

Skill Change Wishlist:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_talk:Problem.

As far as what I'd like to see changed, there's the link. The stuff there are just ideas, and I'm not claiming that any of the changes are balanced, but that they are changes to increase the viability of the skills and a promotion of a diverse metagame.

*Edit* If you want to comment on the stuff on the wiki page, please comment within this thread so I can update the page.

rii · Oct 29, 2007, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Why does Wearying strike even do +damage? If you want to compare it to warriors, it should be equated with dismember, not eviscerate. As for Melandru, why isn't it just the same as Ava of Dwayna?

Quote:

Wearying Strike 5e /attack/ 6s recharge

Target foe suffers from a deep wound for X-Y seconds

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Avatar of Melandru 25e, 2s cast, 60s recharge

For X-Y seconds, each time you use a skill you lose a condition and gain X-Y HP. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds

moriz · Oct 29, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

avatar of melandru

for 10-100 seconds, conditions against you will fail 50% of the time. this skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

essentially, instead of being immune to conditions, melandru dervs will be immune to conditions half of the time. don't know if GW can actually handle this kind of mechanic though.

Circus Midget · Oct 29, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Ritualist:

I don't really know what should be done with this, the damage should definately be lowered but Idk if changing the recharge is enough, an idea is had is half the damage and make it 3-4r so it's more smiting prayerish and not so spikish.

If you make Ancestor's Rage so that everyone is simply spamming it, much like an AoE smiter, you will probably see more dervishes running around.

We see all these people complaining about dervishes, but some suggestions are promoting them, even if it might not be obvious at first glance.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 29, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circus Midget

If you make Ancestor's Rage so that everyone is simply spamming it, much like an AoE smiter, you will probably see more dervishes running around.

We see all these people complaining about dervishes, but some suggestions are promoting them, even if it might not be obvious at first glance.

I don't think dervishes are that much of a problem, forms are quite easy to interrupt a lot of the time, wearying strike could do with a bit of a nerf otherwise I think Dervishes are more of a 'problem' because of VoD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

avatar of melandru

for 10-100 seconds, conditions against you will fail 50% of the time. this skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

essentially, instead of being immune to conditions, melandru dervs will be immune to conditions half of the time. don't know if GW can actually handle this kind of mechanic though.

You're really grasping for straws now, melandru is fine imo, the health bonus can be removed but that's really all I would change, hexes are supposed to be a lot harder to remove than conditions which is why avatar of dwayna is different in that aspect.

Knowledge · Oct 29, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

I feel if you remove the health bonus however, they become liabilities to constant-spikes. 70 Armor, and the average amount of HP people run these days (600ish), will most likely not be enough to save the Dervish. This will result in a fading of the Dervish from PvP, which is the opposite of what you want to promote in this day and age in Guild Wars.

I agree with Mitch. Dervishes dont become a really huge problem until VoD. Everyone knows how much damage Dervishes do, so double prot the target it hits, and voila.

*Edit* I forgot to mention like every team has Ward Melee, Aegis, Defensive Anthem and some other combination of all the passive defense skills. As much as I'd hate to admit it, they are very necessary atm.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 29, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowledge

I feel if you remove the health bonus however, they become liabilities to constant-spikes. 70 Armor, and the average amount of HP people run these days (600ish), will most likely not be enough to save the Dervish.

Normal characters lets just say have 600 average hp, thing is, a Mel derv isn't prone to deep wound effectively keeping 700hp, everyone else has 500...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowledge

I agree with Mitch. Dervishes dont become a really huge problem until VoD. Everyone knows how much damage Dervishes do, so double prot the target it hits, and voila.

A character with 700hp, doesn't suffer from condi's in vod is imba enough. I'd like to see you double prot a ball of archers+footmen+knights.

Knowledge · Oct 29, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

A character with 700hp, doesn't suffer from condi's in vod is imba enough. I'd like to see you double prot a ball of archers+footmen+knights.

Clearly, you are taking what you want from others quotes. Its not like anyone is going to be able to save anything from AoE at VoD regardless of where that damage is coming from.

A Dervish will do the same thing to NPCs as a Mind Blast/Rodgorts Invocation Ele. And also, as previously iterated, Dervishes do not become a problem until VoD. At anytime before VoD, its pretty easy to spot the Tree running around and double prot him/Guardian his targets standing in Wards and enchanted with Aegis.

Thomas.knbk · Oct 29, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

avatar of melandru

for 10-100 seconds, conditions against you will fail 50% of the time. this skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

essentially, instead of being immune to conditions, melandru dervs will be immune to conditions half of the time. don't know if GW can actually handle this kind of mechanic though.

they can handle chances, because it's in block chances, miss chances, and half casts/recharges. I don't really like the idea though.

Lorekeeper · Oct 29, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowledge

Clearly, you are taking what you want from others quotes. Its not like anyone is going to be able to save anything from AoE at VoD regardless of where that damage is coming from.

A Dervish will do the same thing to NPCs as a Mind Blast/Rodgorts Invocation Ele. And also, as previously iterated, Dervishes do not become a problem until VoD. At anytime before VoD, its pretty easy to spot the Tree running around and double prot him/Guardian his targets standing in Wards and enchanted with Aegis.

you can easily stop a fire ele wasting all your npcs... you either recognise the VoD threat before VoD hits and pile DP onto the ele... or you sit a ranger or mesmer on it to interrupt the rodgors and any heats it might have... a pleak on rodgorts and removal of fire attune will slow the fire ele down. Apart from rodgorts and perhaps a heat the fire ele does not bring much else aoe threat into gvg. You simply cannot say a fire ele is as good as a derv at vod.

it is pretty obvious where the dervish is heading... but the dervish will see where you place your prots and easily switch targets to the archer next to the protted target... no prots can keep up with quick target switching inside a big ball of targets... the most effective anti dervish defense for vod is generally a ward against melee... dont forget you need to prot your party members as well as your npcs... do telling a prot monk to double prot every npc a dervish runs at is telling that monk to make his team lose the gvg.

and btw aegis does not affect NPCs at vod...

Byron · Oct 29, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

Blessed light: reduce to 5 energy. If a hex was removed, target ally is healed for an additional 6..30, and you lose 5 energy.

Agreed 100%

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Divert hexes: 5 energy. remove 1..2 hexes from target ally and all nearby allies. ally gains 2..38 health per hex removed. lose 3 energy for each additional ally affected. 3/4 cast.

3/4 cast, yes. But in light of a BL buff, it wouldnt make much sense to take it. The aoe is interesting but probably too powerful.

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Word of healing: heal target other ally and up to 2 additional allies adjacent to that ally for 10..78 health. additional 10..78 health if below 50%. 6 second recharge.

The idea of the skill is still so weak compared to LoD. It needs to be something like, 3/4 cast (GoH standard): heal target other ally for 10..78 health. If that ally was below 50% health, heal for an additional 10..78 health and remove 1...2 conditions.

That seems lame, but a target heal needs to be roffle-good as an elite imho.

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Shield of deflection: 7 recharge. 1...6 duration.

Eh, okay.

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Healing light: in addition, heal up to 2 additional allies adjacent to target for 10...58 health. 5 recharge.

I think the energy return needs to be greater considering its bad healing power. 1...4?

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Life Sheath: 1/4 cast. 1...6 duration. negates 60..204 damage.

Yes to cast time and duration. The damage reduction you have there is too powerful, though.

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1 energy every 3 ranks in leadership.

Seems harsh, but also fair.

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Shadow prison: 25 recharge. Moves 50% slower.

Still the lamest skill in the game.

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Auspicious incantation: 2 cast. maximum 35 energy.

Yes to cast time (mesmers use it, after all). Or max energy should be (inspiration magic)x2, imo. Free conjure nightmare/panic + 19 energy = lame.

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Hex eater vortex: 10 recharge. for each remaining hex, deal 15..61 damage to nearby foes and remove ench (max 120).

Would that be additional damage, or replacement damage?

Overall, I likes.

Shmanka · Oct 29, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

@Shmanka

Cultists Fervor should get buffed as well (lessen the scarfice costs)
Aura of the Lich is fine as it is, and does see use in decent builds in causal end.
Jagged Bones needs changing back to what it was (it was nerfed due to the soul reaping abuse builds, but if SR is fixed, there is no need to kill this skill.)
Lingering Curse also needs a buff.

I completely agree with you, but I would like to see Aura played in RA or at least AB for its fun factor.

Jagged Bones and Lingering Curse I also suggested as a buff, what I have suggested was the work of a few people.

PM me IGN or Via forums I can update my post whenever with your suggestion.

@Divine: The only thing I disagree with is Hex Eater Vortex I love the fact it can punish a flagger from being snared and 2 warriors pounding on it.

@IMMORTAI: You have some neat suggestions and commentary but lets not forget, 2s is a freaking long time in GW. Especially in gvg where control is a huge factor. Those changes will affect HA to a decent degree but I believe will only have a small impact on gvg, I would rather face a 2s deathly swarm spike then a paraspike.

Also necromancers are more "slap and forget" classes hence the functions on most necromancer skills are great, but durations amd effects should be changed. Mark of Subversion is one of the only skills that effects immediately, and having a condition or hex for KD should give builds like hexway and/or balance a chance at having a necromancer midline without it being completely unviable.

Btw. Death Pact Signet.. definitely... needs to be nerfed in recharge.

Bankai · Oct 29, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

The problem of the Melandru's at VoD is pretty much a factor of a lot of different things. First of all, its blows are horrifying. Second of all, it can't get DW or Blinded. Third of all, it has AoE, and the moment it walks towards 3 archers bunched it, you know all 3 of them are dead.

X Cytherea X · Oct 29, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

the horns of the ox suggestion is the stupidest i have ever seen. putting so much conditional crap on an already conditional skill. completely clumsy and inelegant.

they would have to change the name to Horns of the Ox with Tiny Lotus in its Ass (following attack skill naming conventions of course)

moriz · Oct 29, 2007, 05:37 PM // 17:37

assassins are only balanced if they are reduced to the effectiveness of the AoD Shock Assassin. after all, that was the only time which they are balanced.